Nicholas Craven On “Penalty Of Leadership” With Boldy James, Mike Shabb & Upcoming “Craven Inc” Album

The hauntingly cinematic quality of Nicholas Craven’s production has cemented his status as a trailblazer among the producers specializing in drumless samples. While Daringer of Griselda and Roc Marciano played pivotal roles in developing and popularizing this sound, Craven’s movie-like approach to making beats has resulted in some of hip-hop’s most revered albums in the past few years, namely his joint projects with Boldy James, Fair Exchange, No Robbery and Penalty Of Leadership. The former was recorded in three days and released in 2022. Boldy James and Nicholas Craven doubled back at the beginning of 2024 with Penalty Of Leadership, a shoo-in for album of the year, but the circumstances surrounding the album’s release were unlike their first project together.

“We made two songs in the first day. He was still bound to the wheelchair, could hardly move, coming back from like paralysis. Like, it was insane – bolts in his neck,” Nicholas Craven told HotNewHiphop backstage at Festival D’Été Quebec in mid-July, where he performed alongside Mike Shabb later that day. “It was a heavy album to make but that was one of the most amazing experiences, too, because we managed to make something so special, so timeless out of that hardship.”

That quality that the two tapped into was presumably therapeutic for Boldy James following a near-death experience. For Nicholas Craven, it was an exercise in his ear for production; that innate ability to help score an artist’s story with subtleties that draw inspiration from his film heroes, like Martin Scorcese or Akira Kurosawa.

“I like to take something that’s subtle, that’s like smooth on the outside, and then turn it into something dark and almost scary, you know? Almost disturbing, but it seems like nothing. It’s just like, oh, there’s just some little nice melody with violins, but it’s actually like, you put the right rapper on it, the right context, and it’s completely different now. It’s like a horror movie,” he said.

Though he might be best known for his work alongside U.S. artists, it’s his collaborative efforts alongside Mike Shabb that has spearheaded a new era in Quebec hip-hop, one that he takes much pride in. Before the two hit the stage for FEQ, where they performed cuts off of their joint project Shadow Moses, we caught up with Nicholas Craven to discuss crate digging, working with Boldy James, and what he has in store for the remainder of the year. 

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

HotNewHipHop: Your career has been defined through your work with American counterparts. Westside Gunn, Mach-Hommy, Boldy James, and the like. How is working with someone like Mike Shabb, an up-and-comer from Montreal, different from working with some of the more prominent artists you’ve worked with? Especially just bringing it back to your hometown.

Nicholas Craven: It’s the best because I really feel like I’m getting in on the ground floor. You know, Shabb is like, he’s just like a small percentage of what he’s going to be right now. He’s already doing big things but I got a vision for him that he’s going to be like, probably one of the greatest rappers to ever live, honestly. To just f**k with him his honor, and he’s making amazing music too. So I’m just really happy to have somebody in the city that I can f*ck with on that level. Shout out to Jimmie D. Jimmie, that’s my man but me and Shabb got a nice chemistry.

I was telling Shabb earlier that you two are ushering in this new era of Quebecois rap that’s beginning to expand beyond the province itself, and obviously, getting a lot of traction from the States. How have you felt about the reception towards the work you and Mike Shabb have done together, specifically among your collaborators in America?

Honestly, that’s one of the best parts. Just like, you can realize that you don’t even really know these people until you meet them but there’s already a mutual respect, there’s already an understanding. It’s like a universal language, you know? When we’re really, really about this sh*t, you can hear it, you can feel it automatically. There’s no room for miscommunication. Like we both know what we’re about to do, we both know we’re about, period. So it’s just nice, man. And, I’ve been lucky to work with really, really good dudes, really good people, like family men, dads and shit that like [who] know how to be respectful and how to treat people right. So all in all, man, all these collaborations I’ve done, it’s just been a blessing and it brought me to talk to you, honestly.

Is there a project or track you’ve done out of your whole catalog that sticks out to you or has sentimental value to you?

It’s hard to say, for sure. There’s a bunch. But like, you know, most of my stuff with [Mach-Hommy], Boldy [James], Shabb, Jimmie, Roc Marciano, all that type of stuff – Ransom, Fahim. That’s where most of my great stuff lies, I think.

I read the Complex interview alongside Shabb where you mentioned the difference between being inspired and biting. How do you feel about seeing Nicholas Craven-type beats online?

That’s amazing. I’m just really happy that I’m actually inspiring people on that level, you know? And when you call it out, and you give respect, and you give credit, can you really be called biting? You know what I mean? So it’s like, you know, they’re trying to get in and try to get some little bread. To have a name that you can associate with the sound is pretty cool. So, yeah, no, I love that. I got my own little Nicholas Craven type beats playlist on YouTube. And I just like run through them sometimes and some of them are fire. I’m like, oh, wow, how didn’t I think of that? 

I want to move to Shadow Moses real quick. How would you describe this project in terms of the creative synergy between you and Mike Shabb?

I’d say it’s one of the projects I’ve done that has the most like –  it’s like a fusion. You know, I’ve usually I’ll do a project that’s like right up like – you know, I’ll do beats that are for Ransom, beats that are for Boldy. Shabbs’ picks are so different. They’re so unique, like, sometimes it’ll be beats I didn’t even think were dope, you know? And he’ll just perceive something in them. And he will hit them with like, his own new like 21st century style, you know? Like 2024 style, you know, and he listens to so much contemporary music that he mixes it up so nicely into like something that people aren’t doing on these types of beats. So the fusion is like one of my favorite things about it. It’s like a dark, new age and old school hip hop fusion.

Shabbs’ is also a producer. How does that play into the studio flow? He mentioned that he’ll listen to 1000 beats before finding one and you even mentioned that he’s very peculiar with his production choices. 

Yeah, we got to go through a bunch because you know, I like a rapper that’s picky. You know, I like a rapper that’s really like – because I got beats. And the reason I got so many beats is because I want to be able to cater as perfectly as I can, as specifically as I can, to the rapper. So if I have, you know, 1000 beats to show him and he listens to all of them, there’s more chance he’s going to find exactly the thing that correlates with what he’s trying to do. So, working with him, it’s going through a lot of beats, and it’s also approaching samples a little differently. Sometimes I’m like, “Oh, I know Shabbs is gonna like this if I do that,” and I usually get them now when I got like a really good sample that I know he’s gonna fuck with. So yeah, it’s a lot of learning. It’s different than a lot of other beats of people I’ve worked with, but it’s fucking it’s one of the best learning experiences I’ve ever had.

He was telling me you guys run up in the vinyl store and just spend bands to find the illest sounds.

100%. It’s just filtering it down. We go into the vinyl shop, the owner already filtered it by selecting what he’s going to sell in the store, then we pick what we want, we make beats out of it, and then it’s filtered down again by Shabbs picking exactly the ones that work with him. 

It sounds like a more precise and cleaner workflow between you two. I wanted to ask you, again, the Complex interview. You both mentioned how you put each other onto new things. I believe Shabbs said he rewatched The Wire because of you. What’s one thing you’ve learned from him throughout this collaborative process?

​​I’ve learned, really, the new local scenes in the States. A lot of people think, because of the internet, there are no local sounds anymore, but it’s false and Shabb is really tapped in. Like he can tell you the difference between a Baltimore and a DC beat, even though it’s like 40 minutes away, you know? He understands the lyrical characteristics, the instrumental components that make beats what they are, and like he can clearly see, not necessarily the genre, but the style that everybody’s doing. He can break it down mathematically really well. And I was never really a closed-minded dude. I like to expand and learn as much about hip-hop as I can but he definitely showed me a pocket that I wasn’t even aware existed.

I know you’re a film buff of sorts. If you could compare your sound, or even your production style to any director, who would it be in life? And why?

If I could compare it? I would like to say [Martin] Scorcese. Or [Quentin] Tarantino. Or, you know a [Akira Kurosawa]. Some sh*t like that, Coen Brothers. Yeah, that’s my sh*t.

Elaborate on that a little bit more.

I like how, especially like a Scorsese-type dude, and the Coen Brothers and Kurosawa – less Tarantino because him it’s like – what I’m trying to say is that I like to take something that’s subtle, that’s like smooth on the outside, and then turn it into something dark and almost scary, you know? Almost disturbing, but it seems like nothing. It’s just like, oh, there’s just some little nice melody with violins, but it’s actually like, you put the right rapper on it, the right context, and it’s completely different now. It’s like a horror movie. 

I want to touch on Penalty Of Leadership. You and Boldy are going back-to-back with classics but this one has sentimental value to Boldy, as well. How was the process with this project, considering he was also in recovery? I’m sure this was also a therapeutic experience for him. 

I think so. Yeah, it was very different than Fair Exchange. You know, Fair Exchange, we did in three days. Penalty took us about a year, a year and a half, going back and forth from Montreal to Detroit. And yeah Boldy, as soon as he got out the hospital, four days out the hospital, he hits me like, “Yo, come down. We got to make some music.” And we made two songs in the first day. He was still bound to the wheelchair, could hardly move, coming back from like paralysis. Like, it was insane – bolts in his neck. And yeah, it was super, super, super, like it was a heavy album to make but that was one of the most amazing experiences, too, because we managed to make something so special, so timeless out of that hardship. Now, it might make them look back on the situation in a brighter light, too, you know? I hope.

I know you recently mentioned that you and Ransom are cooking up something this year. I want to know, generally, what’s on the itinerary for the rest of 2024? 

Yeah, me and Ran’ definitely cooking. I just sent him a 300 pack and he took a bunch of beats from it. And I got CravenInc coming. You can hear it here first. I got the new, new, new trilogy. Like Craven N is done, Craven N 2 and 2, now it’s Craven Inc.  You know so that’s coming out. New Craven producer album, you know, a bunch of artists on there – everybody, all the All-Stars. Me and Ran got some shit, like I said, me and Boldy got some shit; me and Roscoe P. Coldchain from the Reup Gang got some shit. You know, we got some shit. No, no, no, we got some sh*t coming. Me and Shabb got some sh*t coming. It’s about to be a nice summer.